Soon to replace Go.com as the gosh-darndest, silliest web indexing community in interNUTdom. I lasted about 24 hours as a member of this jerkasylum and didn't see anything resembling the footprint of a brain cell. Lots of smilees, and pious talk about how the road to computer literacy is paved in site submission, but no common sense and certainly no logic.

Name Post
arttworks posted 02-09-00 05:25 AM PT (US)

As a brand new editor I probably should just assume that there is a logical explanation, (but reading some of the post’s I couldn’t find it) why exactly was US moved under north America? why not use an @US under north America instead? It’s kind of ironic that I came to this message board to suggest the vary thing you just undid. I realize this is a world wide index but not to recognize the dominance of the US market by putting a EXTRA path step (north America) in the US seekers way seems really dumb.I hope my ignorance of the system here has me misunderstanding what happened.
hotpink posted 02-09-00 06:16 AM PT (US)
You can still jump directly to the US from the front page of http://dmoz.org/ - can't get any easier than that.
jrose posted 02-09-00 06:22 AM PT (US)
arttworks: Yes.

(heh) Sorry. No, really ... see the threads
"US 'Above The Line'" at

and its parent thread "Regional Reorganization Proposal" at http://dmoz.org/forum/threaddisplay.cgi?t=Forum13/HTML/000536.html

These have slid way down off the bottom of the default Last 25 Forum Topics list view, and Forum Search seems to act unpredictably, so you may not have spotted them.

<< ...the dominance of the US market... >>
Which some sources (you know - "They") believe will end sometime around mid-2002, I think, maybe sooner.

arttworks posted 02-09-00 06:54 AM PT (US)
(hotpink) I bet most people don’t read the fine print and click on the big REGIONAL and not the little us.

I also bet more Americans click the Regional link than the rest of the world combined, therefor they deserve the convenience of a direct link. besides it’s not like the main category is to full to indulge the country that made the internet work.

netesq posted 02-09-00 08:14 AM PT (US)

I think you're right, a fortiori in light of the complications that resulted. During a recent trip to Canada, I noted that *.com URLs were nowhere near as popular there as *.ca URLs, primarily because of availability, but also because of convenience. The Web is very US-centric, and I have yet to hear a convincing reason for burying the United States in the North American cat.

quill123 posted 02-09-00 08:29 AM PT (US)
Well, how about because it is IN North America?
netesq posted 02-09-00 09:12 AM PT (US)

Sorry, I'm not convinced. As an anthropologist by training, I have never found geography to be an exact science. It is, and always will be, culturally relative. IMHO, ODP should provide different versions for different geographic locations. The same is true for every major search engine. (E.g., Yahoo!)

<edited>Is Hawaii in North America?</edited>

rdkeating25 posted 02-09-00 09:38 AM PT (US)

This was discussed at great length a few months ago with regard to the reorganization of Regional. The community was almost unanimously opposed to singingly out the United States as a top level category. Basically the conclusions reached are as follows .... the ODP is a global directory, with contributors from all over the world. To single out any one country, or group of countries, at the top would be in conflict with building and reprecenting a global directory. It is true that the US is the dominant country here ... in terms of the content of the US category and the number of websites out there waiting to be added. However, the community has decided that it would be unfair to single this country out at the top. The community consensus seems to indicate that we should not be building the directory centered around any country. Therefore, US lives under North America.


arttworks posted 02-09-00 11:19 AM PT (US)
Well I have been told to shut up at Go, at Hotrate too, So why should this place be any different. The fact that the community is agreed, is not going to stop me from saying this isn’t logical. The menu should be designed for the convenience of the user not to satisfy nationalistic ego problems. Get some history at: www.donotgo.com
kennebec posted 02-09-00 11:56 AM PT (US)
arttworks: rdkeating25 is staff and the head of the Regional Reorganization.
netesq posted 02-09-00 12:14 PM PT (US)

You are more than welcome to voice your opinion, and I am willing to add my voice to yours. However, someone has to be in charge, and that someone would be ODP Staff Member rdkeating25.

In sum, I think you are right, and if you feel strongly enough about this issue that you feel that it needs to be re-examined, please say so. But please do so in a manner that invites rational discourse rather than confrontation.

arttworks posted 02-09-00 02:45 PM PT (US)
Sorry if I am appearing too hostile, but when an emperor starts using the word “community” I know rational debate isn’t in the forecast. Yes, I believe “that it needs to be re-examined” But look how their framing the debate -Should the arrogant US have special treatment? Rather than -Should there be an unnecessary, politically correct, EXTRA step put in the US users path. Lets ask 100 random web users what they think (you all know what the answer would be) -- Frankly if the “community” can’t get this "easy one" right I can’t help feeling disappointed and irritable.
brendli posted 02-09-00 02:56 PM PT (US)
arttworks ...Three Edits [3 / 3 unique adds / 0 deletes]

and you all ready know more than the combined consensus of the editors...



P.S. Have we met you before?

laisha posted 02-09-00 03:13 PM PT (US)
*slapping at my wiggling fingers*
arttworks posted 02-09-00 03:20 PM PT (US)

As a brand new editor, who used the words “As a brand new editor” in his opening remarks.

I think you pointing out my inexperience here is pretty pointless, and yes petty.

Yes, I haven’t yet dumped 10,000 junky bookmarks into the directory, So therefor I can’t be right about anything, right?

And yes, your tone is all to familiar - make me the problem

I am

just way

too disagreeable.

quill123 posted 02-09-00 03:25 PM PT (US)
gruban posted 02-09-00 03:26 PM PT (US)
I skimmed the argument, and there didn't seem to be a consensus either way. About half the editors agreed that not just the US, but the 5 main English-language countries - US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand - would always have more Web sites than the rest of the world, just because "everything outside World" is, in effect, World/English . Just as World/Russian has Russia as a top level Regional category, etc.

If someone feels strongly about it, view those threads about the Regional organization - they're huge, it will take work - and count voices in favor of all-by-continents and voices in favor of English-language-top , then post a list here of who was for what, and we can see if there really was a majority one way or the other. This is not a trivial effort, you won't be able to say "I counted 54 for and only 37 against", you will have to list names, so then those editors can speak up and disagree if they were listed wrong.

If no one has that energy, we will take RDKeating's judgement. It was certainly not overwhelmingly against all-by-continent.

goal608 posted 02-09-00 03:31 PM PT (US)
Viva México!!

<<Lets ask 100 random web users what they think (you all know what the answer would be)>>

I just asked some friends and they all told me "you have to put Mexico at the first place, send all others at the lower"

Of course, this will be the same results from France, Germany, UK, Spain, Greece, New Zeland, Zimbawe, Italia, Argentina, Japan, Holland, Turkey, Chile, Taiwan, Cuba, Portugal, etc, etc.....

sh33na posted 02-09-00 03:46 PM PT (US)
>>I am

just way

too disagreeable. <<

Chill, sarge. It's your choice.

arttworks posted 02-09-00 03:55 PM PT (US)
Chill and smileee faces, this is fast becoming a nightmare.
pamelajoy posted 02-09-00 04:21 PM PT (US)
arttworks, welcome to ODP.


netesq posted 02-09-00 04:38 PM PT (US)

If you are truly interested in helping to build a better Web directory, then ignore the personal attacks and focus on what needs to be done. You now have step-by-step instructions on how to cultivate the support that you need. OTOH, you can simply indict ODP as a conspiracy of incompetence, and start a pointless Jihad.

laisha posted 02-09-00 04:45 PM PT (US)
>start a pointless Jihad.

Don't Jihads, by definition, HAVE to have a point?

quinn2004 posted 02-09-00 05:31 PM PT (US)
dang. And here I thought that 'jihad' would be a great name for a new editor ...
arttworks posted 02-09-00 05:35 PM PT (US)
“Pointless Jihad” and I am the one that lacks perspective. I just love being told how I broke the rules of engagement by someone who uses this kind of offensive exaggeration. So the forces that be win again,-- Because now you have made it clear to anyone who agrees with me, and is unwilling to use baby talk, that bucking the establishment dogma isn’t worth the grief in irrelevant personal shots you must endure.
quill123 posted 02-09-00 05:55 PM PT (US)
>I just love being told how I broke the
rules of engagement by someone who uses this kind of offensive exaggeration.<

You mean like this?

>Yes, I haven’t yet dumped 10,000 junky bookmarks into the directory, So therefor I can’t be right about anything, right?<

arttworks posted 02-09-00 06:17 PM PT (US)
If I have to defend the reality that the menu is stuffed full of obscure, narrow interest, practically useless trivia. Why not take one step back and start debating the flatness of the earth.
dannyboy posted 02-09-00 06:17 PM PT (US)
Damn Americans.


I am one.

As I'm in my idealistically cynical (as opposed to the far more normal "pragmatically cynical") mood today, I'll point out that the US SHOULD be under North America, just because. We're not worried about "markets" -- that's for the commercial data users.


Wow. Good, productive attitude you've got there. The door is that-a-way.

mfichtner posted 02-09-00 06:21 PM PT (US)
I hate to say it ... but: This begins to smell like yet another resignation thread. Where's the guy with the popcorn?
laisha posted 02-09-00 06:25 PM PT (US)
*throwing a bucket of monkeys at netesque and a sense of humor to arttworks*

>Well I have been told to shut up at Go, at Hotrate too, So why should this place be any different.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result" -Albert Einstein.

quinn2004 posted 02-09-00 06:26 PM PT (US)
arttworks: flies, honey, vinegar. 'nuff sed.
kfander posted 02-09-00 06:37 PM PT (US)
Yeah, right. Like we're gonna move it back? Fat chance. Live with it.
brendli posted 02-09-00 06:42 PM PT (US)
24 hours and counting down...I will take my popcorn with butter.
kfander posted 02-09-00 06:48 PM PT (US)
We need a bigger fence around the newbie's forum. They keep escaping.
mfichtner posted 02-09-00 07:05 PM PT (US)
quinn2004 posted 02-09-00 07:09 PM PT (US)
> We need a bigger fence around the newbie's forum. They keep escaping. <

Won't help. There's a whole river between us and Texas, and those folks keep escaping no matter how big we make the potholes in the bridges.

apeuro posted 02-09-00 07:14 PM PT (US)
As arttworks' fellow (although unwilling) New Jersey resident, all I have to say is: it's in the water people.
alaskaman posted 02-09-00 07:18 PM PT (US)
Call me sick, but I get a lot of entertainment value from quietly following threads like this one.

I believe I have found a new replacement for old Seinfield shows. Pass the popcorn!

brendli posted 02-09-00 07:22 PM PT (US)
alaskaman do you want butter on yours also?
arttworks posted 02-09-00 07:27 PM PT (US)
I have stepped out of my car bomb, rinsed my vinegar mouth, looked thoughtfully at a picture of Albert Einstein, to make this suggestion. What if “we” just put one of those @United States things under the REGIONAL heading. That wouldn’t really change the working path, and it could be easily removed when sub-category space becomes a problem or when some other nation becomes the dominate user.
glynis posted 02-09-00 07:31 PM PT (US)
Arttworks, I understand your concern about the issue, but this is a *gigantic* can of worms. It's been discussed to death and nobody wants to discuss it any more. The amount of energy put into discussing it further would be better used by adding links. You can argue, but few will pay much attention unless you can find things to say that hasn't already been said, and that's doubtful. After a discussion that huge has occurred, bringing it up again costs more productivity than a reversal of the decision is likely to merit.
I've made this mistake as well. Just ask Kfander. Sometimes you just have to take another person's word for it when they say you'll understand after you've had more experience. It really is true.
laisha posted 02-09-00 07:39 PM PT (US)
>...unless you can find things to say that hasn't already been said...


And the flashbacks would probably kill Brendli. I only hope he isn't reading this!

brendli posted 02-09-00 08:13 PM PT (US)
Laisha..slow painful death
cpsweb posted 02-09-00 09:58 PM PT (US)
Wow! Been working on a server and been missing the show... light on the butter, please.
arttworks posted 02-09-00 10:14 PM PT (US)
“What if “we” just put one of those @United States things under the REGIONAL heading. That wouldn’t really change the working path, and it could be easily removed when sub-category space becomes a problem or when some other nation becomes the dominate user.”

My last words on this subject I guess, thanks for all the intelligent feedback, I can see I am going to fit in great here.

redvers posted 02-10-00 01:43 AM PT (US)
<speaks with mouth full of popcorn>

Orlady, this is your fault - looks like you rejected him for a new cat (though why when he has 3/3/0 I don't know - he should get Top!) and now we have:

"Newbie with a Grudge".

My favourite type of thread!

Arttworks, no offence, but before kicking up a big stink, you need more than 3/3/0 - at least a hundred times that before you'll really understand all the issues here.

And perhaps then you'll know when *not* to say something. Silence is an art, you know.

<continues munching popcorn>

greenrd posted 02-10-00 02:12 AM PT (US)
Artworks - your argument is basically that putting a category lower down in the hierarchy will inconvenience people.

That could apply to any country, not just the US.

And if you're playing it "by the numbers", then surely Christianity should be on a higher level hierarchically than Paganism, surely Windows should be higher than Linux, surely ... etc. etc., in order not to "inconvenience" people. But there'd be a furore if anyone suggested that (and I'd be one of the angry ones!) so we don't.

Moreover, this debate is entirely pointless, because anyone with a clue can quickly get to the US by

1) doing a search for US
or 2) clicking on US on the front page. One click. It really is as simple as that.

Thank you, now please pipe down and do something more useful.

flame posted 02-10-00 02:25 AM PT (US)


Of the 3 sites added:

1- http://mendhamnj.org/ - Read on the contact page - "Send feedback to Gary Mosher". Hey, that just happens to be the name in arttworks' profile. Imagine that. And it matches his e-mail addy...

2- http://www.mendhamnj.org/pd/ - Wow, I wonder where he found that site?

Dude, some tips:

1- Posting such garbage like "Yes, I haven’t yet dumped 10,000 junky bookmarks into the directory, So therefor I can’t be
right about anything, right? " here is the fastest way to get your edits investigated by metas.

2- Congratulations on single-handedly insulting every editor here, particularly the long-term ones, and then expecting us to listen to you. Guess what? You've dug your own hole, and the odds of anyone taking you seriously now at this point are slim to none.

"Yes, I haven’t yet dumped 10,000 junky bookmarks into the directory, So therefor I can’t be
right about anything, right?" - You haven't even managed to do more than one edit that doesn't promote sites you're affiliated with, so your credibility as an editor here is, well, pretty much none.

Have a nice day... somewhere else.

(Taking a moment to live up to my nickname.)

spock posted 02-10-00 03:47 AM PT (US)
I just spent a few minutes surfing the web to find some new sites for your category. I only added a few. There were at least 68 more I didn't add ...

I looked at those sites. Looks like good, public service information to me.

sh33na posted 02-10-00 04:54 AM PT (US)
arttworks posted 02-10-00 05:40 AM PT (US)
Hay spock, thanks for half of what you said, unfortunately I wish you would have left the category alone, I plan on adding many additional sites to the category. If you really look at the town page it has extensive links, I was waiting until I could get some other editor to mark the town site “cool” so It, the most comprehensive and relevant site in the category, wouldn’t get buried under the “clutter”. You should have been able to logically anticipate this, but your humanness must have polluted your judgment.

FYI (The rest of you) I not only did the town site for free, I am paying for its housing, So enough of the self-interest crap.

To greenid, It’s not about “a higher level” It’s about pointless EXTRA path steps.

I ask again, Why can’t one of those @United States things, be added under the REGIONAL heading?????

redvers posted 02-10-00 05:48 AM PT (US)
Basically, arttworks, because *staff* said so. So, shut up

As to your altruistic reasons for not adding to your category until your own site is cooled... well, very charitable, but hardly helping someone seeking information in that category.

Indeed, you are preventing them getting the information from anyone except you.

BTW - nice way of spitting on perhaps your only ally so far: >> unfortunately I wish you would have left the category alone, I plan on adding many additional sites to the category <<

You're managing to come over as very selfish here. But perhaps this is a symptom of a bigger problem? Is something wrong?

<munch munch>

kctipton posted 02-10-00 06:03 AM PT (US)
Very sour grapes. Please read the FAQ and the guidelines, then take a long vacation. If you joined ODP in order to change the world, it won't work. Work within the framework or risk being fired pretty soon. That's not a threat, just FYI.
joy76 posted 02-10-00 06:12 AM PT (US)
>Yes, I haven’t yet dumped 10,000 junky bookmarks into the directory<

Dumping? Dumping?? There are more than quite a few of the editors here who have more than 30,000 edits to their credit even though their stats may not show this figure. And we're talking edits, here. Hours of work looking up sites, writing descriptions, cleaning up categories. Hours of thoughtful, concentrated work.

I'm sure you meant well, but insulting those who have worked hard is not the right way to go about things.


arttworks posted 02-10-00 06:25 AM PT (US)
Now the three best sites in the category (mendham nj) are on the bottom of the list. and that’s my fault???
redvers posted 02-10-00 06:34 AM PT (US)
Feel free to credit surfers with just a little intelligence.

Since these 3 sites are 'official' sites, people will find them when looking for official sites about the town.

Otherwise they will be looking for different things.

I'm seeing a pattern here; don't tell me <gasp> you're only interested in promoting your own - charitably and altruistically provided, of course - sites?

And now hacked off that other related sites are drawing surfers away?

Hmmm... don't slam the door on your way out.

arttworks posted 02-10-00 06:51 AM PT (US)
Add three more sites and you can get “my” sites scrolled right off the page, Why doesn’t one of you “cool” the mendham twp. page so that one paragraph wonder will remain in the top two. You people really..........
redvers posted 02-10-00 07:01 AM PT (US)
I can't see anyone cooling it for you, mainly because you are having this temper tantrum.

Please get on with doing some editing, or get out.

Choose now - this thread is getting old.

akita posted 02-10-00 07:33 AM PT (US)
Arttworks, if you have other sites to add to Mendham, begin by creating several subcats such as Business and Economy, and Society and Culture.

The official sites can be left in the main city cat.

I put a few sites in unreviewed to get you started.

kctipton posted 02-10-00 08:54 AM PT (US)
Don't confuse the editing page with the public page. A lot of sites fit on the public page. Besides, who can know what type of monitor or browser a person will have, anyhow?

Don't agonize over what fits on a page, only the titles and descriptions.

kfander posted 02-10-00 10:51 AM PT (US)
Gary, if you are really interested in listing anything other than your own sites, you'll find some here: http://home.swbell.net/kfander/mendham.html .

Some of these sites are already listed, many are duplicated, and others are not relevant for the category, but you'll some sites there to add to the category that you edit. If you don't, someone else will.

apeuro posted 02-10-00 10:56 AM PT (US)
Kopernik is an excellent source Kfander.

For more ideas try:


netesq posted 02-10-00 11:15 AM PT (US)

Well, so much for any meaningful discussion on the US move, as now your only concern seems to be getting someone to cool your site. Pardon me if I don't rush over and do that, but I have to go dump some bookmarks into the directory.

presqueisle posted 02-10-00 11:22 AM PT (US)
Anyone want to guess which site was cooled in which category and by whom ?
flame posted 02-10-00 11:25 AM PT (US)
SPOCK: My point wasn't that they were bad sites, and I never said they were. The point was that the only editing he had done was for sites he was affiliated with.

Then comes in and gripes like he owns the place...

ARTTWORKS: [Deleted... cooled own site. Doubtful he'll be here much longer, so won't waste my time typing to him...]

arttworks posted 02-10-00 11:35AM PT (US)
I asked one of you to do it, You wouldn't, So I did what any rational person looking at the category would think logical. I am so impressed how this "community" stays on subject. Truly amazing...
What other charming crap they posted I don't know as my account was terminated without comment. The address for this board is http://dmoz.org/forum/threaddisplay.cgi?t=Forum13/HTML/000683.html Anyone who is a Dumb-oz member I would appreciate a revised copy. (E-mail To copy@donotgo.com)
Update - I was sent this 3/4/00 I can only assume it is accurate.

Update - sept 2001 I was sent the rest.

flame posted 02-10-00 11:53 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item66

Bye, bye, arttworks.


icxcnika posted 02-10-00 12:04 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item67
Man, too late for the popcorn again.

I did catmv Mr. Altruistic Self-Cooler's subcats to meet new Regional template.

spock posted 02-10-00 12:15 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item68
My apologies for appearing to attack you. I was only trying to make a supportive comment. I didn't mean it to come across as against you.


kfander posted 02-10-00 12:19 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item69
Hmmm... well, I guess I'll mine those sites myself. I'd hate to see them go to waste. If nothing else, Mendham, New Jersey .. wherever the hell that is (New Jersey, I mean), will have a fair listing of sites.
sh33na posted 02-10-00 12:48 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item70
I don't know where New Jersey is. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
laisha posted 02-10-00 01:10 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item71
>I don't know where New Jersey is.

Did you look in your dresser? That's generally where I put -=all=- my jerseys, old as well as new.

Or are you talking about a calf?

quill123 posted 02-10-00 01:19 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item72
I guess this thread's title says it all.
leon posted 02-10-00 02:10 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item73
As he spirals into the abyss, flames subside, fade to black, audience sits in silent awe.

Oh the humanity!

Credits roll

glynis posted 02-10-00 02:11 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item74
How would an editor that new know about US yet anyway? He's certainly not a member...

(Sorry, it was just sitting there waiting to be said. )

Well, I'm still hungry.
*Eating redvers' popcorn*
*crunch crunch*

johnseaman posted 02-10-00 02:21 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item75
What is this, ODP silly season? That's at least three resignation/firing threads this month.

Oh well, I guess you've just got to "consider it evolution in action".

redvers posted 02-10-00 02:35 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item76
Well, I totally didn't see *that* coming.

Any guesses to who he really was? (Who was that masked stranger?).

Glynis, I'm sure that popcorn has been sat out a while - I've made fresh cheese straws for you, though.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programmes...

brendli posted 02-10-00 02:36 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item77
He knew to much...he had to be a "2nd generation editor" (or more)


redvers posted 02-10-00 03:17 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item78
He was obviously trying to get fired.

Perhaps so he could tell someone what a bunch of b'stards we all are?

Or perhaps just to see how far he could go in provoking us *this time around*?

Strange - obviously ODPSS, and obviously determined to try on any one of three counts.

Definately someone who has been here before. Duke48? OdenIVusa? Or just a random jerk?

kctipton posted 02-10-00 03:30 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item79
That was less than 72 hrs from first accept to firing. Maybe we should call it 'death by fora' or similar. Definitely ODPSS.
alaskaman posted 02-10-00 03:53 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item80
Stay tuned for the next exciting show of "Who wants to be an ex editor"

Oh well, back to the Seinfield reruns.

netesq posted 02-10-00 04:00 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item81
So when does Lycos udpate its dMOZ data?
paisley posted 02-10-00 08:02 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item82
damn, I was gonna start a pool or something for this one. Someone e-mail me please so we can set odds..
btw am I the only one who puts tabasco and cinnamon/sugar on popcorn?
etoile posted 02-10-00 08:10 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item83
Cinnamon & sugar, yes, Tabasco, no -- but then, I don't like anything even slightly spicy!

So, paisley, got any of that cinnamon & sugar popcorn left?

And how can this thread be getting old?! It's only been here a day and a half.

citysites posted 02-10-00 08:28 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item84

I don't eat popcorn. It gets in my mouth.

paisley posted 02-10-00 08:45 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item85
it's got tabasco on it er.. had..
citysites posted 02-10-00 08:55 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item86

Naw. That ain't it. I kinda like tabasco, it just doesn't like me.

More like:

a) It takes two days, an' a truckload o' tooth picks, ta git all the crumbs picked outta yer teeth.

b) No room fer popcorn. I usually have my foot stuck in there clear ta the pull-straps on my hy-top Tony Llamas.

[edit] I would go fer somma them cheeze staws, I reckon. [/edit]

presqueisle posted 02-10-00 09:15 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item87
Does this thread remind anyone of the editor in : http://dmoz.org/forum/threaddisplay.cgi?t=Forum1/HTML/002295.html ?
kennebec posted 02-10-00 10:10 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item88
>>>. Maybe we should call it 'death by fora' <<<


pamelajoy posted 02-10-00 10:38 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item89
When I saw this thread had 88 posts, I couldn't believe it. I had to see for myself. If this person has been here before, do you think he came back to read the other fora? Is this a record? 72 hours?
*sigh* I don't like popcorn. Can we have other treats at these meetings?

robjones posted 02-10-00 10:38 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item90
I love it when someone comes into the fora with a basic premise that has some degree of merit (albeit a very dead horse), then turns out they're here just to cool their own sight.

Kind of like having your product publicly endorsed by OJ Simpson. (sigh)

jamesglewisf posted 02-11-00 05:44 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item91
Is three days from joined to fired a record? That was unbelievable.
hotpink posted 02-11-00 07:10 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item92
jamesglewisf: I've seen one editor sacked the day that they joined, for blatantly promoting their own site even after being told to stop.
brendli posted 02-11-00 08:30 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item93
arttworks has a site blasting go.com for not doing what he wanted. My guess he was trying to get fired so he could put up one for ODP. Time will tell.

Does these comments [Copied from his site] sound some what familiar?

"This web site was inspired by my first two weeks in the hell that is GO guide-dom"

"I think the GO Network's policy of handing control of part of its indexing engine to any clown with a computer is symptom and cause of the internet's pending doom"

"What sense does it make to have a menu that is designed by chaos, rather than thoughtful, reasoned, deliberate judgment?"


pepe posted 02-11-00 09:38 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item94

Worse yet the back door to their fora is WIDE OPEN....that's even scarier to me..

netesq posted 02-11-00 10:44 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item95

_Ceteris paribus_, should new editors be restricted to the New Editors Forum until they have completed 100 edits?

Follow-up Question:

Should new editors be subject to an automatic probationary review by metas at 100 edits?

jeanmanco posted 02-11-00 11:18 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item96
1) No - some will need to ask questions or participate in discussion in other fora, particularly those who speak poor or no English and those with very specific topic questions (especially re Adult ).

2) Good idea in theory, but would create even more work for metas.

alaskaman posted 02-11-00 11:38 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item97

Did our ex editor send you an email also?
He wants the remaining messages from this thread. Not!

brendli posted 02-11-00 12:00 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item98
No, I have not heard from him and I would highly suggest that no one send him any of the comments in this forum.


alaskaman posted 02-11-00 12:47 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item99
He won't get anything from me. Nadda, zilch, zip, zero.

I thought I would let everyone know what he is up to.

glynis posted 02-11-00 06:51 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item100
larrycampbell posted 02-11-00 07:24 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item101
What a jerk
quill123 posted 02-11-00 07:27 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item102
Nya! nya! I'm a member of "the gosh-darndest, silliest web indexing community in interNUTdom" and he's not.
glynis posted 02-11-00 07:52 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item103
I wish I could be as cool as he is... the incredible wit he demonstrates, especially in the absolutely brilliant wordplay- Jeez, this is starting to make me feel insecure about my abilities to contribute anything to society as an ODP editor. I think I'll go be a freelance journalist now.
spock posted 02-11-00 09:23 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item104
Did anyone happen to notice that all the clickable links are still clickable?!?
jamesglewisf posted 02-11-00 09:41 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item105
They are only clickable to you because you are logged in. Otherwise he would not have to ask for a revised copy of the thread. It doesn't look like this page is accessible from anywhere else on his site.
jamesglewisf posted 02-11-00 09:45 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item106
I can't even get the page to load anymore. Something must be wrong because I can't even get the site to load anymore. Maybe staff complained to the host.

<edited>Nevermind, it is back up.</edited>

jeffconn posted 02-11-00 09:46 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item107
Re: The EX-editor's webpage:
1. Is there some sort of violation, or illegal act, in posting a complete bulletin board on a personal website? Maybe the UBB folks would like to see it.
2. He puts his E-mail address on this page. Some folks almost invite E-mailbombs!
3. Just curious, is there a ODP editor graveyard website, so we can see the folks who practically begged to get fired? (A place to warn other editors what not to do)
4. What newsgroups and forums should I frequent to see the inevitable complaints about ODP?

Jeff C

paisley posted 02-11-00 09:48 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item108
from teep
posted 01-11-00 12:50 PM PT
to finish
posted 01-11-00 03:05 PM PT (US)

is this the record?

damn I miss all the good ones..

someone please icq me next time one starts so i can start the pool on how long or when or who

netesq posted 02-12-00 08:17 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item109

1. Under what theory would you proceed?

- A. Copyright?

- B. Invasion of privacy?

- C. Harassment?

- D. Some other theory?

I think it would be more trouble than its worth to pursue a legal remedy -- perhaps even counterproductive in terms of negative publicity, and I don't think that any of these theories would make it past the pleadings. [Note: Not a legal opinion.]

spock posted 02-12-00 09:01 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item110
My comment above about the clickable links was that the editor names still linked to their profile pages. I haven't tried to click on the without being signed into the ODP yet ...
netesq posted 02-12-00 09:28 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item111

There is a possible security hole in that link. Pursuant to spock's comment, I exited my browser and tried to access arttworks' Web page listed by glynis. It requested my username and password. Is it possible that this site is reading our http authentication codes?

quinn2004 posted 02-12-00 10:12 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item112
Crud. Okay, I just changed my password in case. If anyone else has been there while logged into dmoz, and especially if they've clicked any of the links from the page, it might be a good idea to do likewise.
mfichtner posted 02-12-00 01:42 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item113
Relax, there is no security hole. Username and password are only requested because the smileys in that page are located on the dmoz.org server. It's dmoz.org asking for username and password -- not attworks' server.
quinn2004 posted 02-12-00 01:45 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item114
'k ... I still 'feel better' though
lisagirl posted 02-12-00 08:52 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item115
Your idea about new editors needing 100 edits....I vote nay

I consider myself new here because I only do bits and pieces of editing. However, I think some of my 'newbie' work was superior to some of what I've seen done by editors who have been around here for a long time. I read the directions, got rid of the "we're the greatest!!" crud, checked the site's links, but apparently this is not what everyone does.

Anyway, my point is, 100 edits may or may not do the job; it's not a matter of being new, it's a matter of following instructions and being open to learning. I think having a new editor's work checked out by a GOOD more experienced editor would be nice.

netesq posted 02-13-00 10:49 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item116

Please don't take me for an elitist. I agree that editors tend to do their best work within their first 90 days. My concern is that some people enter ODP culture without any idea of what is expected of them or what might get them into trouble -- I'm still shaking my head trying to figure out how anyone could possibly hope to reason with someone who gets angry at Robozilla for checking his/her cat for errors! And I fear that ODP will soon devolve into a Lord of the Flies subculture, if it has not done so already.

lisagirl posted 02-14-00 12:50 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item117
was that Lord of the Flies or Lord of the Files? Sorry...

I don't think you're elitist, I just think that creating a mandatory probationary period will cause more headaches. How about this idea - an 'entrance exam'. Give the applicant a messed-up URL and description, and see how well they can fix it. Just a thought.

greenrd posted 02-14-00 09:58 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item118
That's a good idea! Formal probationary periods are just too much work - we don't have the people - but how about just submit one really bad submission to a new editor's category as a test, come back in a week and see what happened?

Of course, with some categories the bad submissions wouldn't need to be faked, they come in thick and fast!

emillard posted 02-14-00 01:24 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item119
Having the Regional forumn available is particularly useful when the United States moves (hmm, I didn't feel anything) or any other such.... I was just going to say that under the >100 rule I wouldn't be allowed in here, but I guess I've been doing more than I thought (210/99/43)

This was a partiulaly painful, yet oddly compelling threads I've come across

Any votes to end it? <grin>


tedres posted 02-14-00 02:05 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item120
Some food for thought.

I am not suggesting that we change anything, but I wanted to share some info that was forwarded to me today - unrelated to ODP.

It is from Matthew Zook's Page of Domain Name Data at http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~zook/domain_names/ You can find other analysis, maps, etc. there too.

As of January 2000 there were 10,008,475 com, org, net and edu domains registered worldwide. There are another 3,344,305 country code TLDs
(.uk or .de) domains registered as well. That's about 2.2 Intenet
domains per 1000 people worldwide. In the US, the figure is 25.2
domains per 1000 people.

Combined (com, org, net, edu and country code TLDs) there are 13.35
million domains. They are distributed as follows...

The US has 50.0 percent
California has 11.5 percent
Los Angeles (CMSA) has 5.6 percent
San Francisco (CMSA) has 3.9 percent
New York State has 4.3 percent
New York (CMSA includes NJ and CT) has 5.9 percent
Germany has 8.6 percent
The UK has 8.5 percent

Limiting it to just com, org, net and edu domains you have the
following distribution

The US has 66.7 percent
California has 15.3 percent
Los Angeles (CMSA) has 7.5 percent
San Francisco (CMSA) has 5.2 percent
New York State has 5.8 percent
New York (CMSA includes NJ and CT) has 7.9 percent
Germany has 2.5 percent
The UK has 3.8 percent

The top five metropolitan concentrations of domain names New York, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, London and Washington DC contain 17.5 percent
of all domain names.

San Francisco, CA CMSA 1,719
Provo, UT 1,648
Los Angeles, CA CMSA 1,246
San Diego, CA 1,226
Las Vegas, NV 1,195

shedragon posted 02-16-00 01:50 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item121
Geographically, CANADA is above the US. On maps of North America CANADA is always towering over the US. CANADA also is bigger than the US. So it only makes sense that CANADA be listed on top of the US in Dmoz too.
quinn2004 posted 02-16-00 07:21 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item122
> CANADA also is bigger than the US. <

Only until it melts.

(and yes, I know it's wrong - but sometimes that's more fun)

robjones posted 02-16-00 08:26 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item123
I'm going with Shedragon's theory. OK, that would put Canada over the US on the list... but it would put the largest US state (Texas) at the top of the US page, so the trade-off is worth it.

(Don't give me that crap about Alaska. Ya can't count states that change size if someone leaves the blow-dryer goin'.)

mfichtner posted 02-27-00 02:43 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item124
Just received spam from that attworks jerk regarding an update to his Anti-Go, Anti-Dmoz, Anti-Whatever site. gruban, laisha and some others were on his list, too.

Delete it? Save the evidence? Forward it to Staff? Post a copy "on the top of each major category on this board"?

kennebec posted 02-27-00 07:43 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item125
My bet is that we all got one. Mine came through ODP feedback. I would have ignored it
but I felt other editors here need to know.
This man is unstable. People need to just back off and not respond to him.

Text I received:
>>>Greetings, just thought I would let you know I have updated my "Web Communities of Internutdom" web site ( http://donotgo.com/ ) besides the message board posts that chronicle my 24 hrs as a member of your community, the site provides an issue forum where Dmoz policy's can be discussed. (probably will just become a place for past members to rant about what a bunch jerks you are.) Anyway, the primary purpose of the web site is to prevent the internet from becoming inefficient and unnavigatable so if you have some thoughts or ideas they would be welcome. arttworks<<<

I won't respond to this thread again.

beebware posted 02-28-00 04:21 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item126
Personally, I think somebody should send a copy of this thread to this jerk.

Of course, suitably changed to include remarks such as:

'We only cool sites if they are better than comparable sites - you hadn't let anyelses sites into 'your' category, therefore we hadn't any sites to compare, therefore no cool status'.

'It is expressly against ODP editor policy to cool your own site, you obviously knew this yet proceeded to cool your own site. This is grounds for dismissal'.

'This editors account has now been terminated by general census by staff and meta-editors because of breach of conduct (regarding self-cooling of sites), annoying fellow editors in private forums, not listening to either staff other other editors and general horrible things that could proof destructive to the general internet'.

Somebody make a mock-up of this page (I'll happly take credit for the above), post it on their own webpage (so we can see the original) and send a copy to this jerk. If he doesn't post it (presumably because it does point out his failings) I think we may have a cause of complaint against his webhost.

My 0.02c.

beebware posted 02-28-00 04:39 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item127
I've just posted the following on his site at http://donotgo.com/godoz2.htm - it hasn't shown up yet, but for some reason I don't think it will.

Okay, you joined ODP on 7/Feb/00 at 14:41:07 and fired at 10/Feb/00 11:48:16 because of the consensus of staff and metas regarding your actions.

Between the time you joined and the time you cooled your own site (10/Feb/00 10:15:54) you had added 3 sites - all your (self-confessed) own. You first posted to the forum in the thread 'Putting the wrong foot forward.. US move?' (appropriately titled) on the 9/Feb/00 at 5:25 and several editors (including staff) pointed out that recent discussions had resulted in the US category being moved to where it is.

This may have not been the best place, but the majority of editors had decided that this is where it would be best - but you continued this pointless argument.

Moving on...
You expressly knew it was against policy to cool your own site, yet you proceeded to do so. Yes, you did ask other to do so, but since you had REFUSED to add any other sites to the category we were unable to compare your site with others, therefore there was nothing pointing that your site was better than the rest.

You were fired from ODP by a general census because of these breach of conduct (which you accepted when you became an editor and that were available at all times on your editor dashboard), annoying fellow editors in the ODP forums, not listneing to either staff or other editors and doing general horrible things.

It is my belief (and I share this with others) that you joined up so you could -try- and put up some 'hate-material' against ODP, as you have with all the other communities that have decided that you are unsuitable as a member.

I've also copied this entire comment to the ODP forums, so please do not remove any of the content or alter it. I do have proof of all the above if necessary.

Richard Chiswell,
ODP editor: beebware
Hotrate editor: beebware
UKPlus netsurfer

netesq posted 02-28-00 08:58 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item128
IMHO, arttworks will go the way of OdenIVusa, and no good can come of carrying on any correspondence with either one of them.
pamelajoy posted 02-28-00 12:18 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item129
netesq, I agree 100%. Ignorance is bliss. I will remain ignorant of arttworks' website. It's bliss.

I thank you all for this thread for warning me ~before~ I went there.

kennebec, I got one, too. Laisha, gruban and a few others were on mine, too. They may be getting spammed with this message.

>Personally, I think somebody should send a copy of this thread to this jerk.

I disagree. Please don't do that.

beebware posted 02-28-00 02:27 PM PT (US)     [edit]     item130
pamelajoy: I was joking about actually sending him the file...
emillard posted 03-28-00 05:32 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item131
Got the following unsolicited e-mail from our friend artworks today:

I apologize for the intrusive nature of this unsolicited e-mail, But I
believe that your comrades are perpetrating far greater internet crimes, and
need to be sent the message that censorship is not an acceptable debate
tactic. There are many aspects of Dmoz policy and function that are in the
opinion of some of us, in need of improvement. In some cases the "brokeness"
is substantial enough to make dmoz a hostile threat to the principle of
fairness and to the ideal of an open and easily navigated web for all. I ask
that you be certain of the integrity of the "community" you straighten with
your support-- I would hope you don't want to be just a foolish "good
soldier" in a evil cause. Fair judgment will require some time and careful
reading, and I hope being honestly certain that I am wrong, regarding the
"evil" of your community, will be worth that effort to you. Please visit at
least some of these sites and judge for yourself the acceptability of the

Message boards:



ExODP arttworks

laisha posted 03-30-00 02:16 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item132
We all got them. He apparently went through the entire directory. He claims, anyway, that he is going to email each of us so we're aware of his plight.

Staff has been notified.

etoile posted 03-30-00 06:51 AM PT (US)     [edit]     item133
All twenty-plus-thousand of us, eh? I'd be inclined to report that to SpamCop. I haven't actually gotten mine yet, but if arttworks is still pitching fits almost two months later, he may very well hyperfocus on this and actually send mail to everyone. (What I wouldn't give to have that kind of time!)